Oh for the love of crumbcake…

Okay, I didn’t really want to write this post because I know it’s just going to open up a whole steaming mess but this article on Irish Central kinda forced my hand.

Before I get into this, I need to establish a few things:

I am completely in favour of gay marriage.

I intent to vote YES in the upcoming referendum and will be encouraging all my friends to register and do likewise.

I have mocked John Waters’ beard in a public forum and called him mean names.

Now that that’s clear, let’s get on to the matter at hand.

***

Asher’s Bakery in Belfast were recently commissioned to create a cake depicting Bert and Ernie and encouraging eaters of said cake to endorse gay marriage. The owners of Asher’s, being Christians of a certain stripe, refused this commission. Asher’s is now facing legal action from Northern Ireland’s Equality Commission and a rather hefty fine. I have a rather massive problem with this and here is why:

The article I linked to says the following: “Would people be so quick to defend Asher’s if they refused to serve Jews, Muslims or Hindus on the grounds that to do so would offend their religious beliefs?”

Alright, now that is a sloppy, poorly thought out, deliberately misleading and bullshit comparison for a number of reasons. Firstly, it implies that if the customer who ordered the cake had been straight, Asher’s would not have had an issue with, that is, that the orientation of the customer was the issue. Secondly, it refuses to acknowledge that there is a difference between serving all your customers equally in compliance with equality legislation and the norms of a just and fair society and engaging in a political act. And yes, baking a cake depicting a couple of ambiguously gendered muppets declaring support for marriage equality is a political act. And in no free and fair society can any citizen be compelled to engage in a political act against their own conscience. As I mentioned before, the above comparison is garbage. Here are some accurate ones.

A gay baker refusing to bake a cake supporting same sex marriage only.

A Jewish baker refusing to make a cake for the PLO.

A Palestinian baker refusing to bake a cake extolling the state of Israel.

A Unionist baker refusing to make a pro-Sinn Féin cake.

A Pakastani baker politely but firmly turning down an order to make pro-UKIP éclairs.

Eclair

Mmmmm…discrimilicious.

You might agree or disagree with the choices of the above batch of bakers. But they are their choices to make. Forcing someone to make a political statement against their own conscience is not simply wrong when you agree with the baker’s position. It’s wrong. Period. That is denying the right of someone to follow their own conscience even when it doesn’t impinge on the rights and freedoms on others (it doesn’t, there are scads of bakeries in Belfast who would be only too happy for the business) .

The article I linked to above states that the owners of Asher’s are free to follow their own conscience but “the may do this in a private religious capacity, not in a public business capacity.” Here’s the problem, people don’t just shut off their sense of right and wrong when they punch the clock. We are moral beings twenty-four seven. When politicians or cops or soldiers or bankers claim that they were just doing their jobs and it wasn’t their responsibility to question whether it was right or wrong we call bullshit. Every human being has a responsibility to their own conscience, even if that conscience is increasingly archaic, backward and out of step with the rest of the civilised world.

What good is our morality if it is not ours by choice but by compulsion? If we are right then time will prove us right. We cannot steamroll over those who disagree with us and use legal and financial threat to force them to support us because that is not what winning the argument looks like. It is at that point that we have crossed the line from protecting the rights of minorities to telling free, thinking individuals what they can and cannot think and do. It is at that point that we are, to quote one my favorite movies, that we are “in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right.”

So what is the correct response to a situation like this? You know, if turning a bunch of homophobic bigots into martyrs and reinforcing the narrative of all-powerful PC thought police targeting vulnerable Christians is not the correct response (and clearly that’s crazy talk)? Um, I dunno. Maybe doing the same thing you always do when a bakery gives you shitty service? Tell your friends, write a scathing Yelp! review and watch as the pro-gay bakers scoop up valuable custom in these economically challenging times? Guys, I’m as much a big-government liberal as anyone but I really think this is on where the Free Market has got this.

It is possible to do wrong in pursuit of a just cause. Homophobia is a huge problem in Northern Ireland but this suit by the equality commission is exactly the wrong way to combat that. I mean, can someone explain to me the endgame here? If you knew someone only baked you a cake because someone put a gun to their head…why would you eat that cake?

I'm...I'm not entirely sure that's chocolate.

I’m…I’m not entirely sure that’s chocolate.

 

23 comments

  1. The ironic thing is…if the bakery had simply said “We have a problem with displaying children’s icons in a sexual related context” instead of quoting religious and anti-gay reasons, there would be most likely way more understanding for their position. (There were really more diplomatic options to refuse and to explain their refusal).

    To be honest, I am very emphatically pro gay marriages, too, but I am not sure how I feel about the concept of Ernie and Bert as gay icons. I now it is in good fun, but I would rather not participate in the joke.

  2. Let me attach this shield here, one second. Alright

    I’m against gay marriage. (Raises shield against volley of rotten fruits) Now, now. Here me out. I’m a very strict Christian, or try to be anyway, and the Bible very specifically says that homosexuality is a sin, and those that live in sin will not enter into Heaven. This is my belief, and I’ll defend this to my death if it should be the case. That said, I’m also not allowed to judge another, lest I be judged in the same way.

    Do I support these bakers? Yes. In America, we often display signs in our shop windows and doors that say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” If you take away a person’s right, then you are no longer a democracy of free thinking people, you become a theocratic style nation pushing ideological agenda’s on people forcing them to obey, and that certainly isn’t freedom.

    So where is the line drawn? At the bakery? How about in our churches? In Houston, Texas the mayor, an out of the closet lesbian has recently subpoenaed five pastors for their sermons, and if these pastors tried to preach about homosexuality as a sin, they would face prison time. Thankfully the Texas Attorney General put a stop to this travesty, but that is only a taste of what is to come.

    If you want to see a truly abhorrent sight, ask one of these free thinkers to accept you as a straight person, and to respect your firmly held beliefs, beliefs you will die for. They won’t do it. They will call you racist, a bigot, and many other hateful words. I say, if you want to be accepted, you need to accept others. As the mouse said, there are plenty of other bakers, let one of them be happy to service your needs. Don’t make someone do something they don’t want to do against their will. It’s called slavery, and is outlawed just about everywhere.

    Knight out

    1. In America, we often display signs in our shop windows and doors that say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”

      Funny, I’ve lived in America all my life and I’ve never once seen those signs in real life — only in movies and TV shows about the Civil Rights movement. When those aforementioned signs were being used to perpetuate racism.

      Don’t make someone do something they don’t want to do against their will. It’s called slavery, and is outlawed just about everywhere.

      I’m installing new windows but I don’t want to put in those big modern ones; I want to put in those small, high-up midcentury ones. Whaddaya mean, it’s a building code violation if I don’t put in those big windows?! But it’s my sincerely held belief that the littler ones look nicer! Don’t ask me to compromise my aesthetic beliefs!

      If you want to see a truly abhorrent sight, ask one of these free thinkers to accept you as a straight person, and to respect your firmly held beliefs, beliefs you will die for. They won’t do it. They will call you racist, a bigot, and many other hateful words.

      Are . . . are you honestly trying to pull the old “Oh yeah, well if you’re so tolerant, how come you can’t tolerate my intolerance. Hah!” argument? Really? Really?

      Here. Here you go: http://vagabondscholar.blogspot.com/2014_08_01_archive.html

    2. Thank you Knight for showing that there is intelligent life out there, and that there are people who don’t cower at the sight of the PC monster :). You are very brave to stand up for what you believe in. I wish more Christians would do that. The worst thing that can be done is standing around and doing nothing while people dump on us.

      To anybody who claims there is no gay agenda, believe me when I say this, it’s been going on as a movement in the America ever since the radical societal changes of the 70s. The homosexual community’s been working as hard as they could to brain-wash the rest of society using methods similar to what the Chinese communist government implemented in the 1950s. Part of it involved smearing positive images of themselves all over the tv, coming up with a more positive name for themselves, portraying glamorous, attractive characters on tv as gay, setting themselves up to look like poor, oppressed victims, making it look as if gay couples always live happily ever after and never cheat on each other, and getting in bed with various politicians to get their way in the government.

      Before you all start breathing fire and calling me hateful things, I’ll first ask you these questions:

      If the entire world’s population, all 7 billion of us, adopted the gay lifestyle, what would happen to the human race?

      If being gay is so natural, why are there so few of them out there? Why do so few mammals in the wild take part in homosexual activities?

      Have you ever met a gay child?

      How come it seems they’re only targeting Christian establishments, as opposed to any other religion?

      If being gay is not a mental illness, how come so many gays and lesbians have issues with depression, suicide, and a number of other mental disorders?

      If there’s nothing wrong with gays, how come 40% of the child molestation cases that come up in America have to do with gay men hurting little boys?

      So you really don’t have problems with men who stick their Johnson’s up each others tailpipes? I don’t even wanta know what the females do, blech!

      I don’t care if any of you hate me for disliking homosexuals and what they stand for, because they stand for everything the good people in the free world DON’T stand for. You want to have unnatural unions and brainwash as well as molest children and destroy their minds at the expense of the rest of us “breeders” as you call us. You want to destroy everything America has stood for, and you don’t care who you step on so long as they stay out of your way. You especially hate Christians because our values and morals are what built this country, NOT you. You can hate on me, snarl, and foam at the mouth all you like. You know that I’m right.

      Let your own storm rage on, your cold never bothered me anyway.

      1. Wow.

        Are you for real right now? You’re talking like you know everything.

        I NEVER understood the anti-gay argument. Sure, you can call it unnatural, you can call it wrong, you can support it however you like, but guess what? That’s your religion talking.

        Let me break it down for you.

        The Christians don’t own marriage.

        Jewish people don’t own marriage.

        Muslims don’t own marriage.

        Hindus don’t own marriage.

        Buddhists don’t own marriage.

        You starting to see a pattern here?

        Nobody has the right to say who can get married and who can’t. Not you, not me, not anyone. If two men or two women want to get married, they can. YOU don’t have to recognize it. YOU don’t have to attend their wedding, YOU don’t have to witness the kiss that disgusts you so much, so why do YOU care? They’re not YOUR “problem”.

        By the way, the actions of a few sick men and women do not equal the intentions of a whole community.

        No, I don’t have a problem with gay people loving each other, and no, I don’t think KNOW you’re right. I believe you’re wrong, but I won’t go assaulting your lifestyle just because I disagree with you.

      2. To address a few of your points:

        So many gays and lesbians suffer from depression and such because they literally face oppression in every facet of their lives. You’d suffer from depression and such too if you constantly had people telling you every day of your life that you are “unnatural,” that you don’t deserve to live because you are gay, or that you are literally the cause of all the evils in the world because God is punishing the world for the behavior of gay people.

        Regarding your “targeting Christian establishments” comment. First, they’re not. Second, it appears that way to you because Christians are by far the most vocally opposed group. Did you know that the main reason many African countries are passing strict anti-gay legislation is because American fundamentalist Christians are traveling there and advancing their anti-gay agenda? How often do you hear about Jewish people or Muslims going out of their way to oppose homosexuality? With Christians you’ve got groups like the Westboro Baptist Church (who by the way are officially recognized as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center).

      3. Oh and before you try to pull the whole “you clearly hate Christians too” card, I AM Christian. Greek Orthodox to be precise. And I choose to love and accept those people that I know who are gay because my faith tells me that God wants us to love everyone, regardless of their race, creed, or sexual orientation. And that includes you, in spite of how much pain and suffering people with your views have inflicted upon several of my close friends. I truly pray that you can find the peace and understanding in your heart to learn to love and accept everyone for who they are.

      4. Thanks. I’ve never been called intelligent before, just that dumb trucker, and as far as monsters go, I cower to no one. Let anything come my way, I’ll withstand, outsmart, or outfight it. Or die trying. As far as standing up to this problem, it’s a simple matter of something we as humans must do. They bring this fight to us, no us to them. I said it before, they will not accept a normal person, and will attempt to force them to alter their own lifestyles or beliefs to accommodate their “unnatural” behavior.

        Take the reference this article mentioned. A baker refused service on the basis of his beliefs. It is HIS shop, HIS skills, and HIS reputation he puts on the line at every event, because if one thing is wrong, or out of place he faces the immediate backlash in a very social media based new world, from either his peers at church, the customers he serves, or potential customers to come. It’s his brand image he puts at stake.

        Just like I do. Every time I pickup a load, it falls on me to be able to handle any and everything that comes up. Not just traffic, weather conditions, or vehicular problems that are standard in day to day trucking, but problems in the load itself. The average shipper has few, if any, ideas about how their load handles on the road. Case in point. Phelps-Dodge, a copper mining company in Arizona and Nevada, had hired me to handle a load of 6 pallets of copper wire. At the time I was driving a 2005 Kenworth T-600 pulling a 53′ dry van with wood floor. When I arrived to pick up the load, I had to sit through 2 hours of safety videos and tests, most of which was moot since I would not be heading into the mine, but across the street to a warehouse. But the “Safety Conscience” corporation wanted all possible visitors to be ready to go into the mine should the situation ever arise. I went to the warehouse to pickup the load, but was informed the only two places I was allowed to be was the office, which had a poor view of the loading area. or the cab of my truck. Deciding that a poor view was better than none at all, I chose the office. The load was loaded, and from what I could see, the load was situated properly. I scaled it out, and left. Not 200 miles later, I had to hit the brakes to stop short for a red light I wasn’t able to see until I topped a small hill. From 35 mph to 0 caused 3 of the 6 pallets to travel from the back to front of the trailer. Reason, the “Safety Minded” employees had failed to secure the load properly, and kept me locked in an office so I couldn’t make sure it was properly done. Their reasoning? A 4’x4′ plastic skid (pallet) won’t slide on a slick wooden floor if you put a non slip pad that’s 1’x1′ under it. This accident destroyed my trailer, could have killed me, or worse, injured or killed someone else. But it would have been on me if anything had happened because the load wasn’t secured.

        For this baker, it’s not much different. If he had taken the job, and the press coverage of it was bad, it would have negatively effected his business, and his personal life. This job went against his ideas, and he has stood by them. That alone has earned respect from me. He doesn’t ask anyone to believe as he does. He doesn’t try to force the LGBT community from its course, he just asked that they respect his beliefs and now he may be fined and sued. That is where the mistake has been made, and the Northern Ireland Equality Commission has lost any respect they may ever gain from me.

        Now Lobo has said that if you faced oppression in every facet of your life you’d be depressed too. Lobo, know this. I’m an American truck driver. You want oppression, live my frigging life. I can’t park my truck hardly anywhere, not allowed to idle the engine for warm or cool the cab, I’m expected to be able to live in a 8′ wide, 5′ long, and 7′ tall box called a sleeper, that must contain my bed, my dresser, TV, microwave, refrigerator, cabinet for storing food, drinks, safety equipment, and least of all, must leave room that all of that not only fits, be locked down during transit and be comfortable to sleep at the end of the day. To make ends meet, we drive 11 hours a day, with only 3 hours extra for fueling, stopping to eat, loading/unloading, traffic problems, weather problems, slow drivers, DOT inspections, and breakdowns. We aren’t paid by the hour, usually not by the load but by the mile driven on the shortest route between not the destination and starting point, but starting city and destination city regardless of where you load or unload in said city. That pay for a company driver is only on average $0.35 per mile, with the average load being about 500 miles day. Figure out your daily pay. It’s $175. it can take two days to finish and be re-dispatched. On the surface, it seems like a lot, but take the cost of living on the road. I figured it out once, at about $30-40 a day average. You make $50 a day, average, assuming you worked that day and weren’t stuck in an area with low freight turnover or a currently high population of driver’s also looking for work. Like I said to LadyAquanine, thanks for calling me intelligent. It’s probably the first time I’ve truly been complimented since I got my CDL.

        I’d accept a gay person, even had a gay friend once, but I can’t condone the lifestyle they live as one that will get them into Heaven. Sodom in Gomorra were destroyed in the Old Testament over homosexuality, and destroyed so thoroughly that scientists and archaeologists have no exact site they can point to and say this is where the city was. I’m prohibited from saying yay or nay to the lifestyle itself, because I can’t judge the person behind it. So I don’t. I try to love all people, and direct them to the Salvation that can be found in find Jesus Christ as your personal savior. If God damns them all to Hell for their lifestyle, I don’t want it to be said on the day of Judgement, that I failed to show them a better way.

        I’m going to stop now, but this won’t. Anyone who wants freedom has to fight for it. The United States of America has had to fight for its right, initially the right to have representation in Parliament as they wanted to tax the Colonies as we were known then. When that failed, we threw the British out and started our own country so everyone could have their freedoms. over 200 years later, American soldiers still fight for the right for people to have their freedoms. Not just personal freedoms of life, liberty, and happiness, but to practice their religion and to be able to speak their minds. If you don’t want that, please rise up in revolt, take over a spot of land, and start your own country that practices what you believe, but don’t expect me to just roll over. My grandpa fought in WW2 in the Pacific Theatre fighting the Japanese Imperial Army. I respect that, he fought, along with his comrades, many of whom died so we could have freedom. That gives us both the right to be our own person, but I don’t expect anyone to violate their belief to serve me. If a Muslim called me an infidel and threw me out of his store, I’d respect that and walk on. It was his store and he had the right to say what he did. So did this baker.

      5. ‘Portraying glamorous, attractive characters on tv as gay, setting themselves up to look like poor, oppressed victims, making it look as if gay couples always live happily ever after and never cheat on each other, and getting in bed with various politicians to get their way in the government.’

        …have you even watched a television with a LGBT character in it? Granted, the only LGBT TV couples I know about are Willow and Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Madame Vastra and Jenny from Doctor Who, but as far as I know, they aren’t overly oppressed women nor do they always live happily ever after (especially in the Buffy case…). Also, we never get into topics as touchy as that because they may be viewed as offensive to some people, and some TV producers prefer to stay safe. That’s completely fine with me as long as the LGBT characters in the show still have their flaws and are actual human beings.

        We are NOT trying to convert you into being gay, we are trying to tell you that we are human too and that we do not go mucking about in sinkholes every fucking second.

        ‘If the entire world’s population, all 7 billion of us, adopted the gay lifestyle, what would happen to the human race?’

        Did we ask you to? Is there something I missed here? Do you actually understand that gayness is not a lifestyle, but something you are born with? It’s no different from being of different races or liking different kinds of music.

        ‘If being gay is so natural, why are there so few of them out there? Why do so few mammals in the wild take part in homosexual activities?’

        So…few…out of…there may be a bit more straight people than queer people, but seriously, SO FEW OF THEM OUT THERE?! I met a lot of queer folk! Also, do you think National Geographic and Animal Planet record the number of times they’ve seen an animal have sex with the same gender?!

        ‘Have you ever met a gay child?’

        I knew that I was asexual since I was nine, actually. And mind you I grew up in a Christian family where homosexuality was scarcely mentioned. In fact, I didn’t know that it was called ‘asexuality’, I just thought that I didn’t like boys nor girls and that was it. Five years later and there’s no difference.

        ‘How come it seems they’re only targeting Christian establishments, as opposed to any other religion?’

        Because much of the persecution that LGBT men and women face comes from Christians. As Lobo said, when was the last time you saw a rabbi screaming to you that being the person who you are is a sin?

        ‘If being gay is not a mental illness, how come so many gays and lesbians have issues with depression, suicide, and a number of other mental disorders?’

        Never had depression before, just sitting here humming ‘NA, NA, NANNA NA NAAA!’

        Though that may be because I have not come out of the closet in public yet, because if I do, I will get judged, persecuted and hate? Maybe that has to do with the depression you’re talking about?

        ‘If there’s nothing wrong with gays, how come 40% of the child molestation cases that come up in America have to do with gay men hurting little boys?’

        Proof?

        Even then, it was probably because they were bullied and abused a lot in their youth due to discrimination. What they do is horrible, yes, but it is not entirely their fault.

        ‘I don’t care if any of you hate me for disliking homosexuals and what they stand for, because they stand for everything the good people in the free world DON’T stand for. ‘

        Guess all the good people don’t stand for acceptance. Hmm, maybe my alignment in Dungeons and Dragon should switch from Neutral Good to True Neutral instead?

        ‘You want to have unnatural unions and brainwash as well as molest children and destroy their minds at the expense of the rest of us “breeders” as you call us. ‘

        Nah, I love kids, go have them. If I ever fall in love with a person (it is possible for asexuals to fall in love and have sex for the record) then I’ll have a kid or two with them and have a day. Also, a lot of gay couples adopt a child…

        ‘You want to destroy everything America has stood for, and you don’t care who you step on so long as they stay out of your way. You especially hate Christians because our values and morals are what built this country, NOT you.’

        I don’t live in America, but I’ve used the almighty machine of the almanac and I’m pretty sure that your country was built on freedom and rights.

        ‘You can hate on me, snarl, and foam at the mouth all you like. You know that I’m right.’

        “Wrong! Wrong! Wrong ! The lobby seemed to shake.’

        -Lemony Snicket, A Series of Unfortunate Events:The Penultimate Peril

        ‘Let your own storm rage on, your cold never bothered me anyway.’

        In the words of Doug Walker, ‘stop making a good song/into fifty shades of wrong!’

      6. “So you really don’t have problems with men who stick their Johnson’s up each others tailpipes? I don’t even wanta know what the females do, blech!”

        AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

        Oh my God, TROLL HARDER, you magnificent bastard. Thanks for the laugh. That was beautiful.

  3. Erik here.

    Mouse, I totally agree with you on this. While I do support gay marriage, I find the right to not do something that will make you uncomfortable perfectly fine as well (that also depends on what you’re refusing and on what grounds, but I don’t see the issue with THIS particular problem). We can’t just have acceptance of one side, we need to have both. Besides, it’s not like Asher’s is the ONLY cake making business in the world.

    Also, I shot you an email with the new audio and a few questions. Just a heads up!

  4. I wouldn’t assume anything, Mouse. I’m sure there’s some heartless sadist who would probably find a cake’s being baked under violent death threats to be a plus. Like they say in the psychopath’s branch of the asylum, bread made under forced labour is sweeter.

    …Not that I have any personal experience with mental institutions. >_>

  5. While I agree that suing this baker is wrong and only fosters more hatred against the LGBT minority, I’m surprised how unexpectedly vile some of the comments to this article are since I really don’t think they fall in line with the post. Trying to suggest gay people are some kind of demonspawn who have conspired from the age of puberty to brainwash the rest of world says all that needs to be said… And even attempting to link pedophilia to homosexuality is flawed, considering most victims of pedophilia are female children and homosexuality by definition concerns male ADULTS. Blurring those lines is nothing more than a scare tactic.

    Also, to suggest the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is “about” homosexuality is a misreading. That story addresses inhospitality/being cruel and unwelcome to strangers (whether they are people traveling through your country or citizens in your streets). The people that come to Lot’s door want to rape the angels in the story–a form of dominance and cruelty pretty commonplace among warriors in old times that sometimes still occurs today, and *not* homosexuality. The only part of the Bible that speaks of homosexuality is Leviticus in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. And anyone who has read Leviticus knows that homosexuality is not the only abomination listed there; in fact, I’d be very surprised if any of these commenters haven’t committed one of the abominations listed side by side with homosexuality there.

    1. Exactly. If it was such a big deal then why didn’t God make it one of the ten commandments? Hell, how many right-wing figures have committed adultery and been welcomed back with open arms? Surely their sin is much worse?

  6. Hey, just realized something.

    Comicreviewer, when you said that we didn’t have to “deal” with the LGBT community, by recognizing or watching their marriages, you made a hypocritical statement. That’s what is being forced in the very argument that mouse brought before us. The baker didn’t want to recognize or cater this arangement, but now faces fines and lawsuits ovet it.

    Wake up, get smart, or quit arguing a pointless argument.

  7. I, too, am against gay marriage. That said, I’ve a couple points for Lobo. First one is that the Westboro “Baptist Church” are NOT Baptist, nor are they even Christian. They’re essentially a cult, consisting mainly of the Phelps’ and their family members. And all they do is HATE on gay people. I emphasized the word “hate” because Christianity is not about hate, it’s about loving others enough to speak the Truth, even when others will hate you for what you have to say. That’s why Christians get targeted. They speak the truth and those living their lives according to the lies we all are frequently told are uncomfortable with the truth. So, now my other point: Muslims do much, MUCH worse things to gays than Christians would ever do. I am against gay marriage, but that doesn’t mean I’m incapable of compassion or empathy. Calling someone a hateful, intolerant bigot for their closely held beliefs and values is just as unfair as if someone said that all gays are pedophiles as well. It’s hateful, intolerant and, yes, bigoted.

    1. “Christianity is not about hate, it’s about loving others enough to speak the Truth, even when others will hate you for what you have to say.”

      Sorry, but you don’t get to go around telling people that an innate part of themselves, which left on its own does no actual harm to anybody*, is inherently sinful, and then try to say that you are not “hating on” them and expect people to take you seriously. Violence is not always physical. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is non-physical violence in its most vile state, because it tries to dress up emotional abuse as “I just want what’s best for you!”

      *And no, being non-procreative is not inherently harmful. If that were the case, then almost all sexual acts are inherently harmful, as people are having a lot more sex than just those instances that end up in pregnancy.

      Here’s a Truth: Jesus never said boo about non-heterosexuality. You’d think if it was important to Him that it might have shown up in any of the canonical Gospels, or the Gnostic Gospels even, but it doesn’t. He had no trouble tweaking or expanding upon other aspects of the Law, and He even spelled out what to do to get into the Kingdom of Heaven–which did not include “don’t be gay” by the way–so the fact that it doesn’t come up even once says something about how unimportant it was to Him, and to the early followers that were recording His statements and eventually writing them down.

      “I am against gay marriage, but that doesn’t mean I’m incapable of compassion or empathy.”

      So? And Hitler was a vegetarian. The fact that a person experiences compassion and empathy does not excuse those instances, beliefs, and behaviors where compassion and empathy are noticeably lacking. And if you think “Well, I’ll tell you that I think your innate sexuality is sinful, and you will/should go to hell for it, and that Jesus is really, really mad about the fact that you’d like to marry someone of the same sex, but I’ll say it *politely*” is a good example of compassion or empathy, I am seriously worried for you and those around you.

      And finally: it’s same-sex marriage, not gay marriage. If I marry my girlfriend, I will still be bisexual, as will she.

      1. *Sigh* Disagreement. Does NOT. Equal. Hate. Now, no one knows better than I do that being told something you do is wrong is a very bitter pill to swallow, but it’s something caring people do. And yes, I am very compassionate and it’s a very difficult thing to do, to disagree. And I find it worrying that agreement with ssm seems to have become something of a litmus test to judge compassion and decency in people. Jesus did say that in the beginning God made them male and female and for that reason a man will leave his parents and become one with his wife. He didn’t say “non-heterosexual”, but He shouldn’t have had to. Btw, I thought you said you were demisexual, not bi.

  8. Late on this, but I was scrolling through these comments. To HoneySempai and Lobo, I want to internet high-five you. You are brilliant. Brilliant. Well done. (As you can guess, I am all for same-sex marriage. Was so happy when it was legalised in England)

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